HackED! Monetization and Business Model Design

- And so I wanna welcome everyone for joining another installment of our speaker series for the Hackathon. Today we have the pleasure of hearing from our first non-submission presenter. This is Professor Amy Shuen. She's a strategy and entrepreneurship professor at Northwestern Laws, Master of Science and Law Program, a program from which I am an alum, and I know that she comes highly recommended to us for the speaker series. Prior to that, she's also a faculty member at UC Berkeley, and has headed up the corporate venture programs at Wharton's SF Program. Professor Shuen has spent more than 10 years as a Silicon Valley corporate venture capitalist, raising and investing a $100 million fund for a major European bank, and also as a partner in a digital strategy consultancy. Her academic credentials include the UC Berkeley, PhD, a Harvard MBA, and a Yale Bachelor of Science, double major in engineering and English literature. And so today we're here to learn from her about monetization and business model design. Take it away.

- Great, thank you very much. Hello and thank you for the people who are joining me. What we're gonna do is I'll try and get through a lot of material in the first 35 minutes, and feel free to write a bunch of stuff on chat, and then we can discuss all of those things and go back to slides and whatnot when I finish with our talk. So that's how we'll do it, and I'll look at the chat only at that time, okay? So we have a lot to cover and I am really hopeful. I want to first tell you I didn't realize that I was one of the first business school professors to be asked to speak at this conference to prepare for the hackathon. And so I noticed the pictures of all of the other people and all of the other people in the conference who were all wearing white coats which is so unlike what happens when I go to my executive programs and into my conferences and venture capital sort of things where everyone is in dark suits. So I hope you don't mind that I took out the one white jacket that I own So I thought I would fit in better, but I see that most people are casual, so that's okay. All right, let me get started. All right, I'm going to share my screen so you can see a couple of pictures and visuals, okay? Okay. So I think that the very first slide, we'll start with a definition. What is a business model? And two simple definitions for a business model would be: a company's plan for making a profit and how your business will make money and how it will operate. But these simple definitions, I think, point at the really important difference in thinking between entrepreneurs, good entrepreneurs, and good doctors. So part of what I'm going to be doing is helping you learn a different language, a kind of language of business that's your entree to learning and being able to search for information about business models and business companies and other startups that have been a successful. So what's some of the different language that we can immediately look at a company's plan for making a profit? Okay, so the goal of the business model is to make a profit. Already we have a difference. The goal is to be able to make revenues minus costs that are positive and that are actually higher than the other companies in that industry. So we have a goal of making a profit, unlike many non-profit organizations and nonprofit healthcare groups. Secondly, we see how your business will make money and how it will operate. So again, we have monetization. We have a goal in entrepreneurship and business of monetizing, making money out of your product, whether it be hardware or software or your service and how you plan to do that. So the key of this slide is to say, even in the definition of thinking about business models and monetization, we are going to be saying that if you want to be an emergency medicine entrepreneur, in some ways you need to wear two hats. You need to have the entrepreneurship business hat of making profits and monetizing your business product or service that's in the emergency medicine area, as well as to keep your goals that you have made your career around, which is the service aspect of improving your patient's outcomes and saving lives. Okay, so the first, the way we're going to start is to start with something that all of us understand and make us realize that actually we know a lot about business models. We just haven't called them that. So let's look at what we would call business to consumer, B2C, business to consumer business models that all of us are familiar with. Okay, so let's start with three that we know. What business model would be transactional? A transactional business model is one where you pay a price per unit. So you pay $2 for, let's say, a quart of milk. That would be a transactional business model and would be something that we're familiar with from Walmart or Amazon where we purchase offline or offline items that we pay a fixed price for. And we only get one of. A second type of business model that we're very familiar with are monthly subscriptions. Not only do we use subscriptions for our health club, but we know that we have to pay monthly or maybe even an annual fee for that service. So this example might be Netflix or might be Amazon Prime, or it might be your health club. And then we have a razor and blade where you have a product like a razor that the company figure it out that they might be able to sell one time, but then profit from refills of the blades. And we have that in Harry's, but we also have it in things like the Kindle, where you buy a ebook reader for not very much, and you get to pay for books on, that appear on Kindle at a reduced price, but each one costs something. So you have not only a transaction price that you've paid, but you also the company Amazon that makes Kindle receives subscription. So if you are a Kindle Unlimited, you're paying a certain amount per month to get as many books on Kindle and unlimited as you can. So those would be three business models that we're very familiar with. Another three might be software as a service, subscription cloud software apps. In business, lots of small stores and lots of startups use Shopify to handle their purchases. And what that does is that you can get the updates and that software and you pay for downloading it from the cloud and for the updates you pay a certain amount per month. Freemium we are very familiar with, because we get a free base service. And then your premium services or goods are an upgrade that you pay for. So that's called free plus premium, freemium. We've seen that with Google Drive where we end up having a base level of storage that we can have, but if we want more, we have to pay more. We see that in LinkedIn. If you want want to just be part of LinkedIn and have your bio be be listed there, you can do that for free. However, if you want professional services or if you want more access or if you want to be able to send InMails, you have to pay a certain amount more so freemium. The third one is crowdsourcing. A crowdsourcing business model might be where you source from an unpaid crowd. How many of you use Waze along with Google? If you're a commuter, Waze is a wonderful, wonderful tool that uses all of the input from people and drivers who have already gone on your route. And it makes it possible for you to find out if there's a stoppage, if there's police cars, or if there's someone who's parked, you know, so that you can't get through and everybody's slowed down. And so you should take another route that would be crowdsourcing. So another three business models. And then we have three business models that we're familiar with from eBay marketplace, where someone creates a platform but then charges a transaction fee for using that platform. We certainly see that and that has created an incredibly large app economy, as we call it, through Apple and through Google, where we have app stores that are essentially a two-sided market where one side are consumers or users of apps and the other side are developers, but it's Apple and Google who create that ecosystem platform called the marketplace. Many, many of us use on demand platforms. So we have Uber, we have food services, all of these are mobile apps that allow us to get things rather instantaneously. And then finally the ninth one that I'll talk about are ad-supported 2-sided markets like Google where you get a free service that's actually being subsidized by advertisers. So just to summarize, we know what these nine popular and well-known business models are. Transactional, subscription, razor and blade, software as a service, freemium, crowdsourcing, marketplace, on-demand platform, ad-supported 2-sided market. So we've just learned kind of what nine well-known sort of the language for nine well-known business models. The importance of this and the usefulness of this is once you know these, you can search using those terms to find out information about whether these business models are being used or are successful in any industry. Let's say the emergency medicine industry. So if I were to put in a Google search term or think about, well, what could I do for a transactional emergency medicine product? What could I do for a subscription service, emergency medicine service? What might I do for razor and blade emergency medicine service? We could do all of those. And so that's what I actually tried and thought I would, I would share with you, I actually Google searched all of these different that we're using for business models and hold up a couple of different products and services and startups that came up. So in other words, emergency medicine business models, you'd look for transactional, you know, who's the Walmart for emergency medicine? Who's the Netflix for emergency medicine or who's a subscription service for emergency medicine? Who's a razor and blade for emergency medicine? The first one I came up with was Avive. Here's a startup that's a transactional model. Avive solution develops an automated external defibrillator and software solutions. And here's their website that mentions that they sell these to many different industries from corporate to schools to institutions so that there's AEDs available close to where people might need them. So that would be a emergency medicine solution on automated external defibrillators that has found a place in other areas beside a hospital. Mumbai, we have an emergency doctor who discovered that it was very, very serious in India that people could not get to the hospital when they had a traffic or a road accident. So the mission to save everybody's life had him create Dial4242, where he has a app that is a subscription service. You pay 100 rupees a month and it allows you to be able to Dial4242 in case you or someone you see has an accident so that an ambulance will get there an under 15 seconds. When I put in razor and blade business model for medical devices, I found an interesting article about how the med tech industry is entirely razor-razor blade business where you have variant, you have blood analyzers who sell their their major instrument or product and then get recurring revenue from the supplies that are needed for that. However, this article says sometimes now you don't even need to have a razor and blade industry, razor and blade business model. There are many capital equipment that are what they call big iron that are so costly, but so necessary to a modern day hospital that you don't even need to have disposables to be able to make a big profit on those kinds of items. So we went for the first three. Let's see if we can find similar for software as a service or freemium or crowdsourcing. The ones I found were kind of interesting. It turns out that the Shopify for EM or Shopify for hospitals is probably your Epic systems for everyone knows for electronic health records. This is the one that many many hospitals use for their EHR system, which is a cloud-based software as a subscription. However, this also points out as CB Insights, which is a very good business analysis kind of website that if you want to unbundle Epic and take all of the things that they do and point by point maybe do that piece better, that could also be a very, very important startup target market as all of these companies have found. So if Epic does 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 different things, then each of these small startups such as, you know, Tagnose can do a better job of patient flow, maybe a AKASA can do a better job of revenue cycle management, maybe Robin can do a better job of clinical workflow. Maybe Klara can do a better job of telehealth, maybe DocASAP can do a better job of patient experience. So each of the areas that in the integrated Epic system for EHR is being done, could be unbundled and done maybe better by a point solution small company. And this is why all of these startups have gotten traction. For crowdsourcing and for, I guess, we have premium service. Many of you may have used WikEM. This started as an open-access reference source and is still an open-access reference source. However, they do have some premium products that if you use WikEM all the time, you can pay a little bit more for a premium service where you get your pages saved or you get easier access to the ones that your emergency medicine department uses most. And then finally, I really like this crowdsourcing, sort of like Instagram for doctors. Figure one, I don't know if any of you have used that, but it's become very popular just because it is like an Instagram for doctors. There are all sorts of visuals that people will post and that, you know, that are made anonymous by figure one, but can be used as kind of a dictionary, Wikipedia or Instagram pretty much to see different cases, rare cases and specialized cases from very, very many disciplines all over the world. So that's become very popular. And then finally we have a couple of different business models such as marketplace, on-demand and ad-supported. I couldn't find too much under marketplace, but under on-demand I put Uber for emergency medicine as a search term and 2-sided markets and came up with Uber for urgent care. So here's a startup called Ready Responders, who try to ease the burden on EMS and emergency rooms. And then finally, under, I guess, ad-supported 2-sided market, it turns out that figure one, a knowledge sharing app for doctors has now gone about, which was free, now sponsors content or launch a sponsored content. That means that on their blog people can, or companies can pay to add knowledge and information that doctors will view. So that's a kind of advertising or sponsorship that's subsidizing the free knowledge sharing app. So what I did was very quickly go through taking a business model template and using that language now that we've acquired the language of business models and entrepreneurship and apply it to emergency medicine startups that produce products or services. And so I just did a whole list of a couple of different ones. Everything from we looked at Avive, but another transactional might be a downloadable app. It's very popular, PediStat is supposedly very popular with emergency doctors because it gives you a quick look at how to prescribe for children, which who are not always the main experience or practice that you see daily. Again, I just did a little synopsis here. It's kind of wordy, but just to give you some background. So given that what we'll do is go on to the next area of business models, which is how can you use a business model or figure out a business model and choose one for your particular startup or startup idea? How can you figure out which business model to use for your idea? And what happens is what we do, at least, in the business school, is to suggest that you use the lean startup technique and a one page business model canvas. In other words, you know, you need to figure out how a lot of different pieces in your business work to be able to make a particular business model successful. The lean startup effort, which came about, I mean I've been teaching at business school for 20 years. We used to make a business plan and that would take like three weeks time and you would do a lot of analysis and you'd make up a plan that you'd figure out all the financial from and so on and so forth. And yet all of this was pretty much kind of conceptual and was trying to get folks to think and plan for the future without having really any data. So the lean startup idea was actually the first business model you make. This business model canvas is actually just a draft, it's a blueprint, but it is a hypothesis. Every single thing you say in it is a hypothesis and assumption about what you think your business model and plan is going to work. Then at least in the lean startup technique, you need to figure out if any of this is actually validated by testing just like you would in any other laboratory. So in the lean startup class, you usually take 10 weeks and the very first week you write down everything you think should fit in these boxes, and then the next nine weeks are spent trying to validate and test very, very, very rigorously each of the boxes. So having 10 interviews with customers before you fill out the customer segment box correctly, filling out having 10 interviews with key partners before you believe that what you've put down in key partners is actually correct, spending 10 interviews in one week, filling out key resources or key activities or revenue streams. So in the lean startup class that I participated in at UCSF, we had lots and lots of startups, or would be startups, spend 10 weeks and tell us that it was the hardest 10 weeks they had ever spent because you could be a PhD researcher or you could be the chief of surgery, but actually getting out and having your team talk to 10 other, you know, hospitals or procurement managers rather than 10 other doctors is really hard for entrepreneurs who haven't had that experience yet. So what we're gonna do is we're going to do the first step. We're going to try and fill out a business model canvas for a company that many of you have heard of. Ceribell. And let's see how we would do that. So how does Ceribell rapid response EEG save money and time for emergency departments while improving patient outcomes? Interestingly enough, you see here it's saving money for the hospital and the department while improving patient outcomes. So we know that Ceribell is a rapid seizure triage of the brain in the emergency department and it allows using this already created a headband that places the sensors in the right spot and has a mobile sort of EEG unit that we can figure out whether a patient who's unconscious with suspected non convulsive seizures where their risk is very high because indeed if they have a second incident that could be deadly and yet you can't tell until the neurologist gets to them, to the EEG, whether they are off to the ICU or they can go back home. So let's look at how a business model canvas might look. It would be the value proposition is pretty close, is pretty easy. It's an AI headband to detect silent seizures. It's been written up in Fox, business AI revolutionizing the healthcare industry. I heard from from Alice that a number of you have heard about Ceribell as a speaker in some of your, in your recent conferences. So we know what the value proposition is. Who are they selling to? Well, they were very clever. They sold first to the numerology department and that's how I heard about it because my son is a neurologist and I asked him being the closest family member who was in medicine, what sort of products and services that are recent do you think are useful for the emergency department? And he said, "Wow, it would be really great if they use Ceribell in the emergency department because we could recommend it and then we would have the EEGs early so that we would know if, you know, the patient needed to go into our new neurology ICU or whether this was something that, you know, was a non convulsive seizure and they could be sent home, you know? But sometimes you don't know with a concussion or when someone's unconscious and we won't get the EEG until they, you know, come into the ICU." So that saves money and time because 50%, if you could triage 50% of your customers as being not convulsive seizures, non-convulsive seizures. So take 50% of the folks that you, that you might otherwise have had go to the ICU, you could reduce the length of stay in your ICUs by four days. That's a lot, right? So they started with neurologists and ICU specialists and neurology ICUs and now they're targeting the emergency department, as well as community hospitals and rural hospitals that then just like, you know, for stroke patients and stuff like that, can now do something in the interim as they are deciding whether to transport their patient to a trauma center or to a larger hospital for more surveillance. We know that the key resource is this EEG data that can be used and shared with the specialists that will be able to tell what needs to be done for this unconscious patient. But also we know that this company has developed the hardware plus the software and the user training, as well as the AI algorithms to detect this specific condition and get FDA medical device approval for it. So what is the revenue model for this business model canvas? We can see that it's, at first, and I saw this in an article that was created for the... Canadian Health Services who were now considering looking into this. And so they asked for a bid from this company and were very honest in saying what the company would charge them. It's transactional in that they will sell the headband and the remote EEG unit for a per unit cost, but then you need to have a subscription for the training, the support, and the software upgrades. So this is a razor and blade medical device business model because it contains both transactional and subscription. Okay, I'm just going to quickly mention because I think this is useful and helpful given that so many of the things that are in startups now use applied AI. I tend to think, or I tend to tell my students that the four pillars for applied AI in any in industry, in any business tends to be virtual assistance, generating insights, automating manual processes and unlocking unstructured data. And you can see that in some ways Ceribell does all four of those because they provide some virtual assistance for the emergency medical person, as well as the neurologist generates insights about, you know, how many of the folks that you get who are unconscious in the emergency medicine department are having these non-convulsive seizures. It automates a manual process where, you know, a tech needed to come and carefully place the EEG on sensors on the patient's head in the correct place to take the EEGs and have a valid reading. And then it unlocked unstructured data in that it was able to take those sensor readings in video and be able to say whether the EEG was likely to be a non-convulsive seizure, plus record that video, the EEG, to be able to make it available and share it with other people in the hospital, the neurologists and the ICU. So you could see that all of those things were actually accomplished by the Ceribell product. And that the other thing about applied AI is that we see that not only is there a virtuous cycle of AI where you get a better product with more users and more data EEG data, but that actually that provides in this business model, this very virtuous cycle of more EEG data and AI algorithms also means that there may be in the future new revenue streams because there'll be new value propositions that they can offer that Ceribell can offer its customer, not only for the emergency department, but also we now say that this AI headband is detecting silent seizures. As I was reading the literature, it seems like it can also do a better job of maybe detecting when there is the start of dementia when there are other kinds of EEG readings that otherwise would not have been noticed because the patient was unconscious, but now can be detected by AI. So again, this could also throw off a number of new products as research and as EEG data is collected, that help the medical outcomes. The one other thing I wanted to mention before finishing is a hackathon tip. As I teach a four day, 12 hour workshop at the Masters of Science and in Law program, we create an AI-enabled chatbot after three days together. However, what's interesting is that it's really only effective at a hackathon and in the judging of the hackathon if you can explain what your product and service does in a very simple and easy way. And that's the key sometimes to getting investment, not how much you've done on the actual product itself, but how well you can communicate and how quickly you can communicate the value proposition and why it makes sense for the customer and for that business model. So my hackathon tip is to, once you've done your business model canvas, even as a first draft and figured out your value proposition and your customer, figure out a really compelling case and explain it. Here's an example. Twiage, T-W-I-A-G-E, created a 90 second explainer video for its emergency service communication device. And I would like to play this but I'm not sure I can. So let's see if that's going to be possible. Okay.

- [Narrator] Emergency department and this is Gabe, a paramedic. Amy and Gabe are both driven to save lives and that means working fast and maintaining top efficiency, but that's difficult today with staticky radio calls. Gabe could call the ED by radio, but since Amy might be busy speaking with another ambulance, he would have to wait on hold. When Amy finally gets on the line with Gabe, she's only able to write down a few notes with pen and paper, no name, no photos, no EKGs, none of the critical information that would help Amy and her team prepare before Gabe arrives. This is a waste of critical time and bad for patient care. Luckily for Amy and Gabe, there is a new solution for hospitals and EMS. Introducing Twiage, a pre-hospital communication platform that accelerates life-saving care. Using our HIPAA compliant smartphone app, Gabe can securely share a driver's license, insurance card, photos, videos, EKGs, and critical alerts, all in real time to the ED. At the hospital, Amy is instantly notified about Gabe's patient and she can quickly scan his report from her computer, tablet or smartphone. She can even track the patient's ETA, make room assignments and share data instantly with on-call specialists. When Amy uses Twiage to streamline her ED, Gabe and his patient save time too. That means better patient care and better business for Amy's hospital. A win-win for everyone. Are you like Amy and Gabe? Then Twiage can help you accelerate life-saving care.

- Okay, so that gives you an example of what a 90 second explainer video might look like that's easy to make in Canva or Powtoons, but it's very powerful because rather than trying to explain it in words, you immediately get the concept of why Twiage could be helpful, what the problem is now, and how it could solve it. So let me just go ahead and tell you my last slide, which is the takeaways. We looked at business models, a company plan for making a profit. We looked at nine popular and well-known templates or business models. And then we saw that using this language we could then look for startups that were described by their business model in the industry of interest, in our case, subscription ambulance services, Instagram for doctors, Uber for urgent care. We saw that the lean startup technique would be to actually draft your business model canvas, all of the pieces that go into making a a business and a business model in week one. And then update and revise those 10 boxes and assumptions over 10 weeks with 10 real interviews each box. We also looked at Ceribell and tried to fill out its business model Canvas, which you can often do right from a video or a video that's online. The virtual cycle of applied AI data and continually is to continually improve your algorithms with data and improve the many different products and services you can provide to your customer with the increased data that you gather. The hackathon tip I had was draft a business model canvas as soon as you have a good idea and value proposition and customer in mind and then create a 90 second explainer video that showcases the most urgent problem that you see that your solution is going to solve, okay? So that's all I have to say and hopefully I've covered all the things that you're interested in and we'll look at chat now.

- Thank you so much for that lecture, Professor Shuen, I see that Kim Quata has put a question in the chat if you wanna come off mute and talk about it.

- Yep, good point. Let me go ahead and stop share. Okay. So, are these business models equally effective in emerging markets and low income economies? Yes, I think they are. A lot of what happens in emerging industries and emerging economies is that the business model canvas is probably the way you want to start. Then you have to pick and choose to see which of the business models might be effective. As you saw, a subscription service for ambulances could happen anywhere, right? But the advantage for a low, emerging economy is that many, many people have mobile phones. And so there a lot of the apps that might, that work in that we have covered by more larger softwares as a service kinds of solutions may not actually be available there. So a number of different items could be done simply on a phone, like an Uber for ambulance. But they wouldn't be able, you wouldn't be able to charge the same amount. You probably would have to charge 100 rupees rather than, you know, $30. But you might also find in these countries that you could actually get subsidies or subsidize it through another form. So one of the things that happen in, let's say, China and India is you have kind of a barter for service. You know, it might be that a hospital would be willing to subsidize the amounts for the ambulance so that they get more customers that the national insurance pays for. You see, so those things become a little bit more complicated for emerging economies, but there are huge opportunities there because there are so many things where the infrastructure is not as strong as it is in the states. As a result, there are many opportunities to make emergency services better. Other questions? Thoughts? Again, very interesting ideas for overseas. I took mainly examples from from the states, but there are just so many things that we could do with the fact that mobile apps and a lot of devices can be cloud-based or made smaller or made more mobile that would really play to the needs of of developing countries. And you're right that it would be a matter of trying to figure out what other organizations might be able to help subsidize these important services if individuals themselves would not be able to. Other questions, thoughts? I hope- Yeah.

- Oh, I was just gonna say Crystal, I saw you came on video. Did you have something you wanted to ask yourself? Otherwise, I do have a question.

- [Dr. Shuen] Okay.

- We have a number of apps that a lot of us as residents use and they use all sorts of business models we talked about today. For example, I've purchased PediStat for a one-time cost, it was like $5 or something. We also have subscriptions that ASAP or some of our larger national organizations will pay for, for the residents as long as we're a member of the organization. And then we also have premium. So I use WikEM pretty much every shift. But as a resident, I don't pay for the premium services. If you were one of our startup participants developing an app, how do you go about interviewing customers or hospitals or organizations to decide which business model is the best fit for your app?

- Well, typically what's interesting is that what you're trying to do is if you're thinking from a business viewpoint, you have two goals. The first one is you want to be, you want to have a competitive advantage. So you want to have something that's distinguished from others. So you can do that in two ways. Your product could be different, right? You could, you know, in the case of PediStat, you know, rather than just general information, you have information for a very specific sector that maybe people don't, you know, deal with as much, right? So that would be one way. And then as long as it's specialized, you might pay a premium price for that, right? Another way to look at it would be to say, "Okay, why don't we look at a business model and think of ideas that would match in that?" So another way would be to say, "Okay, let's just look online and see if anyone, if everybody is doing transaction, maybe I do subscription." So you could use the business model as a differentiator and why would that work? I found an interesting in this article about razor and blade that I mentioned to you, where they were saying a startup company had a very, a high growth, large device that cost $1,000, let's say. So transactional, that's what it usually sells for. However, they realized that there wasn't a, what is it called, a stable demand for it. So maybe in the first half of the year they sold 50 and in the second half of the year they sold 40. Okay? Well, if you think of it, that looks terrible. If you're saying, "I didn't achieve any growth at all, I went from 50 products in the first half of the year and I went down to 40." Even though selling 90 in the first year is really good, it looked really bad and their investors were really upset. So they said, "Well, let's do a different business model. Why don't we rent it?" But for a reasonable price. Now this looks wonderful. Their subscription went up from 50, 50 people who were paying once a month to 90 people who were paying once a month. So by using a rental subscription model, they looked like they had increased their recurring revenue by 80% That looks wonderful, right? So just to think about it, to play around with the financial side is to realize that the business model is also a tool for investment and for monetization. So you have to think what might make the most sense for your product compared to others who are doing the same thing and will one kind of revenue model or multiple revenue stream look better for investors in the startup phases as you're getting started. So that might be another reason you might look at other business models or revenue models. Again, those are things that, it's interesting when you do this lean startup technique and some of the folks that will go through the hackathon will probably go into a more detailed approach. If you spent as much time on making your product as testing and validating the business motto, which is like the architecture of your company, you'll discover a number of things like this because people in the industry will tell you that is part of the interesting aspect of doing this kind of interviewing people in the industry know what works and doesn't work, what has been done and hasn't been done. And often are willing to spend 15, 20, 30 minutes on a cold call helping a fellow doctor get a product or service out into the marketplace. And so those are the kinds of things that, you know, decision on which one should I use, often will come out of those interviews that you have as part of validating what your vis business model should look like. Okay? I hope that's helpful.

- That's really great advice. Thank you so very much. We're at time. Thank you again Professor Shuen for coming on and sharing your knowledge with us. And we'll be sharing this talk again with our participants offline.

- Great, thank you very much for inviting me.